Interrogation Policy after Osama bin Laden
Glenn Carle, former CIA interrogator
Kenneth Himes, O.F.M, Boston College
Sanford Levinson, University of Texas School of Law
Moderator: Erik Owens, Boston College
Date: September 12, 2011
It may never be clear whether “enhanced interrogation” tactics produced essential intelligence that led U.S. forces to Osama bin Laden’s Abbottabad compound in May 2011. But bin Laden’s death has renewed the debate over the ethics of interrogation policy, and the Boisi Center has brought together three experts to discuss the implications. Glenn Carle, a 23-year CIA veteran and author of last year’s The Interrogator: An Education, will join distinguished constitutional law professor Sanford Levinson (editor of the textbook Torture: An Anthology) and theologian Kenneth Himes, O.F.M. (author of a several seminal articles on theology and torture) for a robust conversation about the theory and practice of interrogation today.
Glenn L. Carle served twenty-three years in the Clandestine Services of the Central Intelligence Agency, working in a number of overseas posts on four continents and in Washington, DC. Carle has worked on terrorism issues at various times since the mid-1980s. He has worked extensively on Balkan, Central American, and European political, security, and economic issues. His last position was as Deputy National Intelligence Officer for Transnational Threats, on the National Intelligence Council, where his office was responsible for strategic analysis of terrorism, international organized crime, and narcotics issues. Carle is author of The Interrogator: An Education (2011). He holds a B.A. in Government from Harvard University, and a M.A. in European Studies and international Economics from the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies. He did additional graduate work in International Relations at the Institut d’études politiques de Paris, France, and studied at the Université de Grenoble, France. Glenn Carle speaks French and Spanish fluently.
Sanford Levinson is a professor of law at the University of Texas Law School and a professor in the Government Department, University of Austin, Texas. He is, this year, a visiting professor at the Harvard and Yale Law Schools. He is the author of several books, including Constitutional Faith (1988, 2d ed. 2011); Our Undemocratic Constitution: Where the Constitution Goes Wrong (and How We the People Can Correct It) (2006); and a forthcoming book tentatively titled America the Ungovernable? (Oxford University Press, 2012). He is also the editor of Torture: A Collection (2004, pb. ed. 2006) and is co-authoring a book with Jack Balkin on crisis governance in the United States. Levinson has also published in a wide variety of popular venues and is a frequent contributor to the Blog Balkinization. He was elected to membership in the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 2001.
Kenneth R. Himes, OFM, teaches theological ethics and is a former chairman of the Theology Department at Boston College. He is a member of the Orderof Friars Minor, the Franciscans; Professor Himes is also an ordained Catholic priest.
Fr. Himes is the author of two booksand editor of two others, all dealing with matters of Christian ethics. In 2005 Georgetown University Press publisheda volume he edited, Modern CatholicSocial Teaching: Commentaries and Interpretations, which received the first prize award for reference books from the Catholic Press Association. His newest book, Christianity and Politics: Cooperation, Cooptation, and Confrontation? will be published next year by Orbis Books. Fr. Himes was the founding associate editor of New Theology Review, and later served for five years as editor-in-chief of that journal. He is the author of dozens of essays for a variety of periodicals including America, Commonweal, Concilium, Cross Currents, Momentum, New Theology Review, Social Thought, and Theological Studies.
Awarded the Ph.D. from Duke University in religion and public policy, Fr. Himes has a special interest in the area of Catholic social teaching and the role of the church in American public life.
One day after the tenth anniversary of the 9/11terror attacks, the Boisi Center hosted a major panel discussion on the future of American interrogation policy in front of an overflow audience in Higgins Hall, featuring a former CIA interrogator, a constitutional scholar, and a moral theologian.
Glenn Carle, a 23-year CIA veteran and author of the 2011 book The Interrogator, opened the panel with a riveting account of his experience as an interrogator in the post-9/11 world. Given explicit orders from his superiors to use all necessary means to obtain intelligence from several captives in secret American prisons, Carle strongly believed that physical abuse was counterproductive to the effort. After more than a year in charge of the interrogation of a “high value target” in two separate locations, he was replaced by a case officer more amenable to the administration’s aggressive interrogation policies. Carle also bemoaned the effects of public efforts to make torture an accepted method of interrogation, citing polls showing that young Americans under age 35 support torture at much higher rates than older Americans.
Boston College theologian Kenneth Himes, O.F.M. argued that the public debate on torture should focus on justice, not utility. To be sure, he said, the utility argument fails: studies have shown torture to be only marginally useful— resulting in intelligence that is unreliable in nature and limited in quantity— even as it problematizes American foreign relations and increases the likelihood that American soldiers could face a similar fate. More importantly, however, torture is a grave violation of the inherent dignity and integrity of the human person, and Himes was deeply troubled that Americans now see it as a debatable policy option rather than a deplorable war crime. He closed by arguing for increased oversight and training of interrogators (especially contractors), greater public awareness and support of officials who have spoken out against torture, and a more robust and informed national conversation about interrogation policy.
Sanford Levinson, professor of law and government at the University of Texas, began by explaining that defining torture is a central problem in abolishing it. Clear and strict definitions are elusive. The word itself is never used by those who employ it, and it is diversely understood in psychological or physical terms, or by its intended or perceived effects. For his part, Levinson argued that torture is the treatment of a human person as a slave without rights. Focusing on rights instead of interrogation methods, he said, will help us face the deeper questions about whether we believe all people have rights we should respect.
In the lively question and answer period that followed, Carle endorsed truth commissions over prosecutions of Americans who authorized or conducted torture; Levinson argued that political leaders and media outlets failed in their duty to bring the question of torture into broad national debate; and a host of BC students and faculty members expressed their hope that this kind of rigorous moral, legal and political conversation would continue in the years ahead.
Carle, Glenn. 2011. The Interrogator: An Education. Nation Books. The Interrogator leads the reader through the underworld of the Global War on Terror, asking us to consider the professional and personal challenges faced by an intelligence officer during a time of war, and the ways in which war alters our institutions and American society.
Levinson, Sanford. "In Quest Of a Common 'Conscience': Reflections on the Current Debate about Torture," in Journal of National Security Law & Policy 1:231-252 (2005). Levinson takes up the phenomenon of “torture lite” and the ways, if any, that it fits into our ordinary legal (and moral) analysis.
Levinson, Sanford. "Slavery and the Phenomenology of Torture," Social Research 74:149-168 (2007). In this article, Levinson argues that the basic legal and moral issues raised by slavery and torture are similar and explores disagreement about the content of the concept of torture.
Torture: A Collection. 2006. ed. Sanford Levinson. Oxford University Press. In this collection, the authors grapple with whether the moral legitimacy of torture in extreme cases should receive legal sanction, or whether a disjunction between law and morality is preferable.
Our Undemocratic Constitution, by Sanford Levinson
Some Questions for Americans Elect, by Sanford Levinson
Search "Levinson" for more blog entries in Balkinization